Max Winder (BSO violin, 1962-1992) oral history interview: Winder, Jonathan, interviewee (Side A, Side B); Max Winder (BSO violin, 1962-1992) oral history interview: Barshak, Regina, interviewee (Side B), April 10, 1994; June 7, 1994, 2023-07-19T00:00:00+00:00

Cassette 67: Oral history conducted by Robert Ripley on April 10, 1994, Jonathan Winder is the son of Max Winder (Side A, Side B); Oral history conducted by Robert Ripley on June 7, 1994, Regina Barshak is the sister of Max Winder (Side B).

PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT

Tape 67, Side A

Interviewer: Bob Ripley Interviewee: Jonathan Winder Subject: Max Winder (BSO violinist, 1962-1992) Date: April 10, 1994

0:12 INTERVIEW BEGINS

0:42-2:25 early life; born in Paris to a poor Polish immigrant Jewish family; father was a tailor; discovered interest in violin at age 5; moved outside of Paris to Yerres, took train to the city for lessons

2:25-3:46 attended Paris Conservatory; attended Conservatory with Roger SHERMONT, who he would later work with again at the BSO; was kicked out of the Paris Conservatory when World War II began because he was Jewish

3:46-4:30 parents were taken to concentration camp during the war and were never seen again; Max fought with a North African unit during the war

4:30-4:55 ultimately returned, was reinstated to Conservatory; after graduation, went to Nice to serve as concertmaster

4:55-5:42 during war years, was presumably able to keep his violin; by 1944-1946, was performing in Nice and Paris again

5:42-8:20 sister encouraged him to come to United States; came over in about 1948; he met his wife when she heard him play, perhaps at a wedding or other recital; story is that his first words to her were "Are you a cigarette?"

8:20-10:40 moving around once in the United States: lived in Philadelphia, but did not join Philadelphia Orchestra; went to Cleveland around 1948, then moved to Houston, perhaps because of assistant concertmaster position opening there; ran a laundromat and repaired hearing aids to fill out the season

10:40-12:08 had a lifelong love or electronics; passion for tube, crystal, and shortwave radios; learned to repair tube radios and hearing aids to supplement income

12:08-17:09 enjoyed his experience in Houston; taught regularly and took students, even though few were very strong players; played in Houston Club; enjoyed the experience of the orchestra and environment in Houston; Sir John BARBIROLLI was conductor in Houston, but Max was more of a francophile than an anglophile

17:09-19:04 heart attack when Jonathan was age 8-9; worked very hard and put too much pressure on himself; played in string quartets as well as the orchestra and Houston Club; mother went back to work at this time and received college degree for teaching

19:04-25:07 story of father's audition for the BSO; moved the family to Brookline for the 1962 season; had some family in Brookline already and there was a good school system; father began at the back of the violin section and auditioned to move up; had an immediate good impression of Boston

25:07-28:00 first impressions of Tanglewood were very positive; found the setting and the music to be moving and life-changing; the orchestra acted like family, were very close, especially with members who had children; sense that there was a community, especially at Tanglewood, like that around Goose Pond

28:00-29:58 was known for his sarcastic wit, nicknames for other members; "G & D" (Gloom and Doom) nickname for himself and Roger (SHERMONT?); played jokes on Harry DICKSON; played cards together

29:58-33:22 enjoyed the music in the orchestra and the tours; impressions of travel to China and Europe; friendships made while traveling abroad

33:22-35:10 father was a photographer; family has kept the slides and looks at them often

35:10-38:40 personal life; moved to Chestnut Hill Ave to be closer to Symphony Hall; Max's children were encouraged to learn instruments, older brother chose to learn piano, while younger brother escaped the requirement; Jonathan's own children also encouraged to study music

38:40-41:59 Jonathan studied music; spent time in France for work; father came to visit and they enjoyed time together exploring the city and Burgundy

41:59-44:13 recognized time to retire; had a small place on the cape, but sold it when Jonathan's mother passed prematurely; saw other friends passing on, including George ZAZOFSKY, Joseph SILVERSTEIN, others; other friends retiring, like Freddy OSTROVZKY

44:13-46:03 impressions of conductors; felt Erich LEINSDORF's repertoire was too dramatic; Max was pleased to have played with Seiji OZAWA, had a lot of respect for him as a musician; liked Arthur FIEDLER but was not as comfortable with John WILLIAMS

46:03-47:34 final reflections: father was glad to be part of the instutitution; did not take much time off; was concerned for the welfare of the orchestra and came to the Players Committee regularly with issues

47:34-49:56 chamber music playing in Boston; trio with Bob RIPLEY and Earl HEDBERG; was more active at certain times; quartet with Gerald GELBLOOM, Stephen GEBER Gabler, Joseph PIETROPAOLO; taught at Tanglewood

49:56 RECORDING ENDS

Tape 67, Side B

0:17 RECORDING BEGINS: JONATHAN WINDER CONT'D

0:17-3:42 memories of students of Max Winder's; Max' support for students and encouragement of their careers, many of whom wrote to him with appreciation even years later; friendships with the GEIGER family, Joseph PIETROPAOLO, Leonard MOSS, POTTLE family

3:42-4:30 story of playing around in the violin section; teasing Harry DICKSON

4:30-8:28 final impressions of Max Winder as a person: had a quick temper, struggled with some of the demons of his youth and the choices he had made, including the choice to be an orchestral player rather than a soloist; someone who had been able to spend his whole life doing what he cared about; story of his father going after someone who had stolen from someone else in a parking lot; story of father in Texas as liberal and anti-discriminatory

8:28 INTERVIEW CONCLUDES



Interviewer: Bob Ripley Interviewee: Regina Barshak Subject: Max Winder (BSO violinist, 1962-1992) Date: June 7, 1994

8:32 INTERVIEW BEGINS

9:13-15:33 early life, born in 1926; was mischevious even as an infant; parents were very poor as they were Polish immigrants; story of Max seeing a violinist playing for the first time and asking for a violin; Max' first teacher encouraged family to move to Paris to give him lessons; father brought 5-6 year old Max to perform in restaurants for money; story of young Max and his father falling off of their bike, damaging the violin; decided to move to Paris to encourage Max' musical training

16:37-20:04 was brought for an audition for the Paris Conservatory at around age 9; was admitted as the youngest student in the school in the early 1930s; Conservatory was directed by Henri RABAUD; trained with Henri LUQUIN; took courses in technique, solfege, theory, composition; did not attend elementary school or high school, so he recieved private education

20:04-21:40 Regina took piano lessons; anecdotal memories of competing with Max for practice time as the Paris apartment was very small 21:40-24:12 additional teachers at Conservatory included Gabriel BOUILLON; Max was succeeding at his studies but did not play outside of the Conservatory at this time; Max had perfect pitch

24:12-27:14 in 1940s, as World War II began to break out; in 1941, France had adopted "Nuremberg-type laws"; Jewish students were expelled from the schools; Max WINDER was expelled from Paris Conservatory for being Jewish; all Jewish students were expelled from the Conservatory; Regina was also evicted from a teacher's college

27:14-30:55 Regina was arrested with her parents while Max was out on a camping trip; was taken to a camp, but eventually released because she was French; parents went to another camp and were not heard from again since they were Polish immigrants;

30:55-34:20 continued her own self-directed education; taught herself English; were continuing to hide near the forest during the day; stayed with an aunt at night; aunt helped them get false identification cards; they were able to hide their Jewish identity with help from their aunt

34:20-37:42 in 1944, they were denounced while the two children were in Paris; uncle was kidnapped and taken to a camp; friends warned them before they returned to their aunt's house; hid in their old house for a few days; felt that the French was very anti-semitic and went willingly along with German occupation, said it was easy for French to surrender to Germany

37:42-39:30 realization that the war was ending; after liberation of France, Regina and Max returned to Paris;

39:30-42:12 Max was reinstated to the Conservatory in 1945; received second prize from the Conservatory thought he felt he deserved first; gave a speech against the jury on award day, and Yehudi MENUHIN was in attendance

42:12-45:14 was offered employment in the French Riviera in Cannes and Nice as a soloist; lived separately for a time while she remained in Paris and he worked in Nice; Regina began to work as a typist in the American emmisary; decided she wanted to go to the US with Max

45:14-49:15 story of anti-semitism in France as a child; feeling that the anti-semitism existed powerfully well before the war broke out; Max never spoke about his experience

49:15 RECORDING ENDS